澳洲建国日争议终于有解！国庆日期不改了，每年多休一天！

周星星1832

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 09:52
Good point!

Is why @chubbycat is so cheap?

she is female and she never spends.

she never gives any credit

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 09:54
Fair point. But is there any other positive outcomes except another day off? I can only see negati ...

So very true! Nothing much good could come out of playing victims forever, at certain point, you gotta let go of it no matter how tragic a past that you had been through.

But, I reckon it's reasonable just to spare one day out of 365s recognizing what Australia is built on!

yping88

周星星1832 发表于 27-9-2018 09:55
she is female and she never spends.

she never gives any credit

Haaahaaa. I just laughed my head off over this. @chubbycat

周星星1832

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 09:53
Enlighten us! Anything at all, let's brain storm for it.

he love using this

so we need to find out who use this a lot recently

yping88

周星星1832 发表于 27-9-2018 09:59
he love using this

so we need to find out who use this a lot recently

That's a good hunch! Let's follow it through then!

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 09:58
So very true! Nothing much good could come out of playing victims forever, at certain point, you g ...

Let's be frank on this. This country was built on British common law system, Christian value and predominantly European culture which all had nothing to do with the indigenous whatsoever. The indigenous had lived on this resource rich island for 40,000 yrs yet no pottery, no metal tools, no wheels and not even a single hut. If this island is kept isolated till today it's almost certainly still bugger all. They just happened to be living on this land when the ships came. Yes there were tragedies we should all feel sorry about. But in terms of building this countries w/ them or w/o them it would all end pretty much the same.

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 10:17
Let's be frank on this. This country was built on British common law system, Christian value and ...

That's a very frank point! I am pretty sure that the indigenous inhabitants have enjoyed all those modern techniques, civilization, democracy, common law and constitution and alike.

It never occurs to me for one split second that anyone would want to go back to 40,000 years ago, but, history is what it was, they just would like people to remember that and celebrate it!

yping88

Every race has been through an awfully long time to come to today's civilization, the British is no exception to this evolving process!

Before the metal tools came to their existence, human all lived in raw, uncivilized culture for millions of years, who knows who did what back then!

Then, the British and other Europeans woken up from the wild, enlightened by God maybe! They cultivated and modernized their own culture and land, and started exploring other continents. Back then, maybe they did not believe that other races who looked different and lived differently were not a part of human race. Then, there were coming the era of cruel killings, and there were coming the era not counting indigenous people in general population and all this kind of stuff.

I don't think the British and other Europeans were very proud of their conquering and killing past, no matter how well developed a country they have made Australia to be!

So, I reckon sparing one day out of 365s to reflect what this civilization was built on will do nothing but show the honesty and integrity a modern society should have!

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 10:17
Let's be frank on this. This country was built on British common law system, Christian value and ...

But, I definitely take on your excellent points about Indigenous zero influence on today's culture, mate!

The law of jungle rules human history as well, but, you will have to recognize what you survived on in the jungle for you to be able to make it to this day!

That's what my take is regarding this special day!  

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 11:02
Every race has been through an awfully long time to come to today's civilization, the British is no  ...

Well if you talk more with the working class fair dinkum Aussie fellas especially the 'bogans' you might be surprised how proud they feel and many of them dare to say it out loud. While some others might not be that loud or never talk about it but that's only because they are too careful to become the PC witch hunting victims.

We already have one day 26/1 to celebrate THE civilization we all live in and benefit from. No need to make another day for another civilization because there isn't another. Stone age doesn't qualify to be call 'civilization'. Since when Chinese civilization was recognized? Since Shang Dynasty when state was formed, cities were built and bronze works were everywhere. I would never go  for double standard to sound political correct.

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 11:34
Well if you talk more with the working class fair dinkum Aussie fellas especially the 'bogans' you ...

You are right on the money about some bogan culture and what their stance is on what Australia truly is, I should say!

True that any politician will become the witch-hunt victims if they publicly deny Aboriginie's and Torres Strait Islanders' original entitlement to this land! Or make their invasion pride public!

I agree sometimes that political correction could go too far, but it's hard to just stand on the perfect stance as far as a multi-culture nation is concerned!

Kudos to you for always being honest and speaking up your mind, I love to hear what you have to say on some issues, because you always can bring up different perspective and push people to do the reality check!

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 12:46
You are right on the money about some bogan culture and what their stance is on what Australia tru ...

I don't think anybody is proud of invasion and mass killing unless he is really fucked up. But it's part of the whole history which has made what this country is. Just like you know the side effect of a certain pill but people still have to take it because it cures. 26/1 is the day to memorise the history as a whole, good and bad. Luckily the good outweighs the bad big time hence we celebrate.

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 12:46
You are right on the money about some bogan culture and what their stance is on what Australia t ...

And I'll put a question mark on the entitlement. Based on what exactly? Ownership is a legal term. Before the common law was established on this land there was no law so how to interpret ownership? Men killed men, tribes attacked tribes that was the way of life of the pre-settlement era. The concept of ownership didn't even exist. We all live under the same law now. One is entitled to something only if the law recognize it. I believe you heard of Neanderthals. They were the true indigenous Europeans but wiped out by our ancestor homosapiens but still some Neanderthal DNA merged into the modern humans. Should someone with relatively higher Neanderthal DNA claim the entitlement to Europe and ask for privilege?

P.S. I own a 512m2 block of land where my home was built upon. The entitlement belongs to me and my wife only which is recognized by the law. If anybody came and told me his ancestors pooed and peed here thousands of years ago so he is somehow entitled I would simply say F off.

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 12:46
You are right on the money about some bogan culture and what their stance is on what Australia t ...

Kudos to you for the bloody good English. 'Right on the money'. Nice to learn.

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 13:26
And I'll put a question mark on the entitlement. Based on what exactly? Ownership is a legal ter ...

It got more interesting now, mate!

I happen not to know much about Neanderthals in Europe, and I don't know either why Europeans are not facing the same arguments in which Neanderthals are claiming the original entitlement to Europe, and demanding the social benefits from their governments! So, I will take in what you put in here about Neanderthals.

Good point on common law and ownership decision. But, I beg to differ on your argument on the ownership by taking for instance your house and your land.

You and your wife are owner because you paid for it! That's the ownership entitled by the purchase, not directly by the law.

Then, whoever's ancestors pooed or peed in that property thousands of years ago are not lawfully allowed to enter that premise without your permission any more. That's what trespassing or break and entry is all about, because they sold that ownership to the incoming owners.

Point is you purchased that title other than robbed the ownership out of those previous owner's hands by killing them. See what I am trying to drive at here?  

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 13:50
Kudos to you for the bloody good English. 'Right on the money'. Nice to learn.

Why? Did I say anything inappropriate?

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 13:50
Kudos to you for the bloody good English. 'Right on the money'. Nice to learn.

You are on the top of language chain, mate! As I said before it is such a bless that you got the gift of gab, plus, you have read all kinds of books, which gives absolutely the bonus edge to navigate through the arguments/discussion, whatever topic it might be!

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 15:39
It got more interesting now, mate!

I happen not to know much about Neanderthals in Europe, a ...

That's an excellent argument. But the key word here, you may not realize it, is 'collective entitlement'. The indigenous claim they owned this land and many others endorse that idea and think it's cute. I only find it meaningless and unhelpful. Collective entitlement to the land only works when it comes to sovereignty. We can say Australians own Australia, Americans own the US or the Chinese own China. This is recognized by international law and modern world order. On other levels collective entitlement to land technically doesn't exist. People can say that but can't make it work. To make it a real thing you must go specific then the real questions are who(individuals not the whole people) owned what, when owned it, where it is, how big, where the lines are, how you prove all your claims etc. you know it would take you nowhere because nobody has got nothing! We all know only their ancestors lived here that would not suffice for the claim. I'm sorry but NO.

So if this collective entitlement can't really offer them anything tangible but at least gives them a virtual crown which makes them happy so by all means let's go for it. HOLD ON! Please don't. It only intensifies the victimhood sentiment and make them feel granted for all the government benefits and turn more and more dependent. It must STOP! The growing indulgent indigenous loving PC culture is like offering the cripple a wheel chair and ask him to sit in it forever and tattoo 'used be able to walk' on his forehead so that this man can keep charging the criminal's children and grand children instead of encourage and train him to once again stand up on his own feet. The apartheid ended 50 yrs ago. They need to move on and so do we.

Back to the comparison of my entitlement and the indigenous' entitlement. Yes they were killed and expelled from 'their' land. But another difference is I have law recognized ownership but they didn't. Technically we can accuse the early settlers for murder but for land grab that a matter of morality, not law. But if any morality doesn't lead to positive outcome it's a bad one.

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 15:42
Why? Did I say anything inappropriate?

Not at all. I'd love to be right on the MONEY though I don't have any.

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 16:47
That's an excellent argument. But the key word here, you may not realize it, is 'collective enti ...

Actually, at first glance, I came to agree all the arguments you put forward here. But, to think it again, I can see a loophole in them for me slip through!

Common law, who set it and carried out here in Australia? You couldn't just come here, kill most of the original inhabitants. Then, had something in written and called it a law that stated the free settlers owned Australia now.

So, the ownership became a fact and protected by what they had written and international law!

As matter of fact, legend has it that Darwin is still actually on the loan from the Aboriginies to Australia government.

In Northern Territory, there is a vast land size of bigger than Tasmania called Arnhem Land, its sovereignty rests with indigenous people. It has been claimed as natural and beautiful as a paradise. But it's not for public access. If anyone from outside like to visit, they will have to take their application to the particular  indigenous community beforehand, and it will be up to them whether to issue the pass or not.

Just brought this up for argument's sake, not because I don't agree with you!

yping88

Talking about living on the social benefits, how come it's relatively tolerable for those so called Australians (Caucasians, Muslims, Asians, Africans) to live on social benefits, but crack drugs, or be alcoholics, or commit serious crimes and so on. While it becomes so intolerable for the indigenous people to do the same? How come the same dealings invite such a different view on different ethnic groups?

Considering how badly they had been done by in the past, who can blame them for holding the grudge (I can safely say that not all of them do so) and take advantage of this system?

But, what about the other groups? What gives them the privilege to rest so comfortable on the social benefits?

牧马人

You're on! Dinner first. Will catch up later.

MICHELLE07

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 07:51
Except Aboriginies and Torres Strait Islanders, nobody else has the original entitlement to this bea ...

来自星星的我们

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 17:31
Actually, at first glance, I came to agree all the arguments you put forward here. But, to think i ...

My bad. Perhaps it's not precise enough to say collective entitlement. Should be more specific general collective entitlement based on race. Then the collective entitlement I mentioned and the collective ownership you just mentioned were 2 very different things. The aboriginies' collective ownership for the vast land in NT was specific for those individuals only, just those individuals happen to be aboriginal. This ownership is manageable and legal so I fully respect it. Outside that group no other aborigine has the entitlement to it, neither do I.
Same deal in NZ. The Maori tribes own vast lands but this ownership is based on tribes, not race. An individual is only entitled to the land of his own tribe. This is recognized by a treaty between the British settlers and the Maoris which the Maoris earned via their heroic resistance.

As for the invasion part dear forgive me to be so cruel but it's already history. Saying you can't to what already happened won't rewrite it. And guess what this is what people do when you struggle to live. you wouldn't have much compassion when you worry about where you find your next meal and where is your shelter to keep you warm and dry. People fight and kill for food, land and resources regardless of which race which religion. Otherwise how do you think our ancestors grew from 2 small tribes into a gigantic empire? I'm ethnic Han. But checking the look I may have inherit more DNA from the southern people who got slaughtered and slaved by Han in ancient history. Shall i play victim card and claim any entitlement if i were still in China? That only makes myself a laughing stock. The Maoris weren't the 1st people in NZ. Another group of islanders arrived far before them. But what happened? Maori landed in NZ only 700 yrs ago, killed and ate some of the 1st people and slaved the rest. Do any Maori feel sorry about that nowadays? No. Among the Aborigines how many people got killed in tribe fights? Anybody still accuse for that? Of course not because you don't get anything from that. But you can get a big deal by accusing white guilt. That's the beauty of it! White guilt is not necessary a bad thing. It shows people have general sympathy after they have a certain life standard. But it's certainly not good to abuse it.

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 17:45
Talking about living on the social benefits, how come it's relatively tolerable for those so called  ...

Let me make myself clear first. I'm against anyone to abuse the social benefits regardless race or religion. And of course there are abusers in any community but still the stats varies among different communities. There is nothing wrong to acknowledge that some are by far over-represented to exploit the system. The indigenous is one of them, perhaps even right on top. Who can blame? well everybody can. It's my right to call it out. It's my right to say 'Hey it's my tax money. It's not for you to take advantage of.' The past is already past for more than 2 generations. I didn't grow up rich. I came to this country with almost nothing but now I have a decent life and 2 houses. There is no excuses for them not to make their own livings earn the things they want by work.

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 20:21
My bad. Perhaps it's not precise enough to say collective entitlement. Should be more specific gen ...

Perfect argument!

Still, I found something I can't be totally on the same page with you!

True that Maori slaughtered the free settlers on earlier days! But, as a generally savage and wild population, they didn't know any better, they didn't realize they shouldn't have done what they did. Look at what they were armed with when they killed people: Bows and arrows, animal traps??? They killed people for food, for shelters. That's all about surviving, Maori didn't seem to accomplish anything but to live on! And New Zealand was transferred to white settler's hands while Maori was carrying out the killings (Does it make any sense to you?)

However, the free settlers in Australia were armed with guns, cannons, knives and explosives. Why did they slaughter people? To invade, to conquer, to rob them of their land...Then, to establish the law that benefits the settlers, to write off the aboriginie's entitlement, to rule this land, to deny the Aboriginie's citizenship, to take children from their parents without consent, I could go on....

I am totally on board that what's done is done, no one can ever change the past and rewrite the history. But, to make it right, the wrong-doing party (who claimed to have been well educated and civilized) should (Of course, Australia already apologized) show the remorse and sympathy to the wrongly done-by party on their own initiative, rather than constantly sit on Aboriginie's demand for apology.

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 20:21
My bad. Perhaps it's not precise enough to say collective entitlement. Should be more specific gen ...

Perfect argument!

Still, I found something I can't be totally on the same page with you!

True that Maori slaughtered the free settlers on earlier days! But, as a generally savage and wild population, they didn't know any better, they didn't realize they shouldn't have done what they did.

Look at what they were armed with when they killed people: Bows and arrows, animal traps??? They killed people for food, for shelters. That's all about surviving, Maori didn't seem to accomplish anything else but to live on! And New Zealand was transferred to white settler's hands while Maori was carrying out the killings (Does it make any sense to you?)

However, the free settlers in Australia were armed with guns, cannons, knives and explosives. Why did they slaughter people? To invade, to conquer, to rob them of their land...Then, to establish the law that benefits the settlers, to write off the aboriginie's entitlement, to rule this land, to deny the Aboriginie's citizenship, to take children from their parents without consent, I could go on....

I am totally on board that what's done is done, no one can ever change the past and rewrite the history. But, to make it right, the wrong-doing party (who claimed to have been well educated and civilized) should (Of course, Australia already apologized) show the remorse and sympathy to the wrongly done-by party on their own initiative, rather than constantly sit on Aboriginie's demand for apology.

yping88

牧马人 发表于 27-9-2018 20:44
Let me make myself clear first. I'm against anyone to abuse the social benefits regardless race or ...

I believe you are! As a tax-payer and a health practitioner, I have seen firsthand many of those who do nothing but abuse the social benefit program and hit up on the tax-payers. I am just appalled as much as you are about how this system got abused and taken advantage of!

I absolutely look up to you and each and single one of us tax-payers, who has been fighting hard for their own decent existence and social grace.

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 21:51
Perfect argument!

Still, I found something I can't be totally on the same page with you!

Come on! We are talking about 2 complete different ways of life which had a 40,000 yrs gap met each other. It's simply dreaming to believe that could go peacefully. The settlers needed land to build house, farms and towns while the aborigines wanted to range around and find anything breathing for food. Tell me how can these 2 co-exist? Just imagine your family were one of the settlers you and you husband built up fences and ran a farm. You had cows, sheeps, chickens. But your farm was the places where the aborigines hang around freely. Would you allow them keep doing that? Please bear in mind any breathing thing could be food for them, you sheeps your cows or even your children, and they dared to kill if found it necessary. What would do? Invite them for dinner? Come on! You would pick up a gun and shoot. You would teach them a lesson grave enough so they wouldn't even dare to come back. And as one of the settlers you would team up with others to drive them off as far as possible so you could feel safe for your families for your properties and get back on with your business. It sounds very cruel but it's the truth. When such different ways of life and mentalities clash one must fall and the other must prevail. There is no other way around it. And the one who owns guns will definitely prevail. Simple stuff.

As for the slaughtering, well in fact most of the indigenous population were wiped out not by bullets but by virus from old continent. It was a grave tragedy but if I carry some virus and other people got infected from me and died that's still just a tragedy. No one can charge me with even man slaughter not to mention murder. So yes there were slaughter but that has been exaggerated by many PC narratives.
And as for the stolen generation, you probably would change your mind if you get to know how children were treated in traditional aboriginal culture. Even till today child abuse is still a very serious problem in the aboriginal community, much much more serious than many people can ever imagine simply because the PC culture scared people off to talk about it not to mention deal with it. And this relativism, all cultures are good, all cultures are equal we must respect them bullshit. I would never respect a culture that didn't even manage to invent a wheel or regards child abuse as normal. What outcome it's gonna be if we keep crowning them with more and more virtual entitlement? It's simply feeding more nutrition to cancer cells.

牧马人

yping88 发表于 27-9-2018 22:03
I believe you are! As a tax-payer and a health practitioner, I have seen firsthand many of those ...

Please take a few minutes to see this video. Best speech I've heard for years. This is the spirit not only I root for but also got inspired from. And take the black community in the US as example under which administration they get better off? The one with a black president who encouraged them to scream BLM or the one with a white so-called racist president who told them all lives matter?