澳大利亚基督教党：同性婚姻宣扬的那种生活方式的危害甚于吸烟！

xblues

'Smoking healthier than gay marriage'

                               
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Jim Wallace accused the Greens of demonising churches with 'hate language' and caring more for trees than children.

The head of the Australian Christian Lobby (ACL) Jim Wallace says smoking is healthier than the lifestyle that would be promoted by same-sex marriage.

澳大利亚基督教党领袖Jim Wallace说：同性婚姻宣扬的那种生活方式的危害甚于吸烟。

Mr Wallace made the claim in a debate on marriage equality with Greens leader Christine Milne at the University of Tasmania today.

Answering a question from a student on the relevance of his views, he said health statistics among the gay community were worse than those for smokers.

Jim在回答一个学生关于他对同性婚姻的个人看法时说：据健康数字统计表明，同性恋人群的健康状况比吸烟人群还差。

"I think we're going to owe smokers a big apology when the homosexual community's own statistics for its health - which it presents when it wants more money for health - are that is has higher rates of drug-taking, of suicide, it has the life of a male reduced by up to 20 years," he told the audience.

他说：我想我们应该对吸烟者道歉，因为实际上吸烟者的健康状况不是最差的，健康状况最差的其实是同性恋。这因为如此，同性恋比吸烟者花掉的医疗补助多，比如同性恋中吸毒的比例很高，自杀的比例也很高，就平均寿命而言，男同性恋的平均寿命最多比正常男子少活20年。

"The life of smokers is reduced by something like seven to 10 years and yet we tell all our kids at school they shouldn't smoke."

而吸烟者的平均寿命比正常人的寿命只少10年，即便是这样，我们还在学校要求年轻人不要吸烟。

After the debate, Mr Wallace said the figures saddened him.
"But what I'm saying is we need to be aware that the homosexual lifestyle carries these problems and ... normalising the lifestyle by the attribution of marriage, for instance, has to be considered in what it does encouraging people into it," he said.

Jim 说，看到这个统计数字，让我很痛心。然而，我们要意识到，同性恋其不健康的生活方式才是导致这些问题的根源，...让同性婚姻合法，也就意味着认同同性恋的这种生活方式，而且这将会鼓励更多的人去尝试这种生活方式。

Mr Wallace said legalising same-sex marriage in other countries had not reduced risk factors for gay people.

Jim 还提到，纵观其他国家，那些已经同性婚姻合法化的那些国家，同性婚姻合法化并没有降低同性恋的生活方式带来的风险。

"Where gay marriage has been introduced, or civil unions, it hasn't changed the level of suicide," he said.

承认同性恋伴侣关系，和同性婚姻合法化，也没有减低同性恋的自杀率。

"We have to accept the unfortunate levels of suicide, the unfortunate levels of excessive drug use (are) because of the nature of the lifestyle.

我们将不得不接受这个令人遗憾的事实，那就是，是同性恋所选择的不健康的生活方式本身，造成了那么多人选择自杀，或者滥用毒品。

"I am very sorry for that. My heart goes out to those people. But it is a fact."

我真的对同性恋人的这些遭遇而深感不幸，我对于那些人表示很同情，但是也不能不承认这个残酷的事实。

Senator Milne said discrimination in laws such as the Marriage Act was a contributor to any health concerns.

参议院Milne说，导致这些健康上的问题的根源在于，法律上对同性恋的歧视，比如婚姻法。

"What I know is that the mental health issues for young gay people particularly are certainly increased when discrimination occurs," she told reporters.

Milne还说，正是社会歧视会才导致年轻的同性恋遭遇心理障碍，进而导致自杀率的升高。

There was little love lost between Mr Wallace and Senator Milne during the debate.
Senator Milne accused the ACL of homophobia and said Christians should be more concerned with poverty than homosexuality.

Milne指出澳大利亚基督教党的饭桶立场，还说基督徒不是更应该宣扬爱，并且是不是更加关注贫困而不是同性恋问题呢？

She said with bills before the federal parliament and Tasmania's lower house last week passing a same-sex marriage bill, change was inevitable.

她还说，塔斯马尼亚下议院上周已经通过关于同性婚姻合法化的表决，这表明同性婚姻合法化的历史脚步谁也阻挡不了。

Mr Wallace accused the Greens of demonising churches with "hate language" and caring more for trees than children.

Jim 说 绿党 对教会的语言是【充满仇恨的】，和关心下一代比较起来，绿党更加关心树木。

He described gay activism as "bullying" and said a climate had been created for "legislation by fatigue".

Jim 说 同性恋平权运动活动者的【暴力凌辱】Bullying。并且说绿党所提出的气候变暖毫无事实根据。

Tasmanian marriage equality advocates said the ACL was using outdated figures from a survey of obituaries in San Francisco newspapers at the height of the AIDS crisis.

实际上ACL上问所引用的关于同性恋中艾滋病的统计情况来自于落砂机时报的一个多年以前的统计结果，报告来自于正值艾滋病蔓延时期。

"Yes, there are health problems in parts of the gay and lesbian community, but they are caused by the prejudice of people like Mr Wallace and the discriminatory laws he defends," Tasmanian Gay and Lesbian Rights Group spokesman Rodney Croome said in a statement.

是的，部分同性恋人群存在健康问题，但是其根源恰恰是想ACL这些人对同性恋的偏见，以及这些人极力维护的有歧视性的法律所造成的。

"Mr Wallace's offensive remarks show how desperate he has become, and they effectively deal the Australian Christian Lobby out of the marriage equality debate."

ACL的极端歧视性言论显示出了，在同性婚姻合法化这个问题上ACL 已经穷途末路，狗急跳墙了。

Mr Croome said ACL representatives had previously linked gay equality to Nazis, paedophiles and the stolen generations.

ACL在以前的言论中，就曾经把同性恋平权运动和纳粹，恋童癖，【被偷的一代人（澳洲白人对土著人的迫害）】联系在一起。

"The quoting of irrelevant and biased studies to stigmatise gay Australians is a low and desperate tactic that diminishes Mr Wallace and his cause," Mr Croome said.

ACL的无稽之谈，和对同性恋的偏见，及其无耻下流，穷凶恶极，的行径，只会最终毁掉ACL和他本人。

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/nationa ... .html#ixzz25bnhVga8

[ 本帖最后由 xblues 于 6-9-2012 12:12 编辑 ]

xblues

Sharon Boyle

Doesn't he realise that the reason some gay people turn to drugs and resort to suicide is the hatred and discrimination that he preaches? He's got their blood on his hands that's for sure. What a nasty piece of work he is.

cello

哈好久没来，来顶一下虫子。

这个是我在微博对这条消息的回复：

夺人性命的是歧视，不公和仇恨而不是爱。一个散布仇恨言论的人，怎好意思宣称自己是追随耶稣的？另外女性的平均寿命长于男性，Jim是不是应该去割JJ变性?

mason00

顶

xblues

美国1973年实现同性恋的非病理化，1977年爆发了著名的Stonewall 石墙运动，标志着同性恋平权运动的开始。2000年左右是基督教大规模发起了所谓的ex-gay同性恋改造运动，对同性恋实施逆转疗法。2010年以后，各个ex-gay机构纷纷倒闭，十多年多少同性恋啊？这笔血债谁来偿还？

前一段时间美国基督教办快餐店的事情，举个例子吧：基督教不断的打同性恋的嘴巴，还一直说这是基督教的言论自由，等有一天同性恋不高兴被无端被打了，同性恋伸出拳头挡住了基督教的拳头，基督教就说同性恋妨碍了基督教的言论自由，基督教认为基督教打同性恋是基督教的言论自由，基督教有持有这种看法的权利。

在同性婚姻这个问题上，基督教一直从中作梗，ACL就是澳洲著名的饭桶基督教团体，在反对同性婚姻这个问题上很激进。我知道并不是所有的基督教都是这样的，可是不是有人说过：All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. 这就是如今的Good Chrisitans。

对于The Good Christians 我是有亲身经历的。我的一个曾经的基督教的朋友，不止一次试图拉我入教，不放过任何机会，其中包括我和家里出柜的时机，他都不放过。还有一次，我表示了对吕丽萍的饭桶言论的不满，我的Good Christian 朋友立即维护起她的 sister in faith。我和她没有恶交，但是断交了。

xblues

我花了三十多年才让我相信人心可以坏到什么程度（是在我和爸妈出柜以后）。可是有时候，一些人的言行还是让我那么的吃惊。这位ACL的长老就是其中之一。如果某一个人这么想也就算了，可是还有那么多人支持他，有那么多人推崇他在这个位置上，还有那么多人袖手旁观。

其他的不说，就说他举的那个例子，说由于同性恋面临的种种社会问题，得出结论说同性恋的生活方式不健康，进而反对同性恋和反对同性婚姻。

首先：怎么可以用某一些同性恋面临的社会问题，进而否定整个同性恋的全体呢？

其次，他列举的那些关于同性恋恶劣的生活方式，有没有出处，有多少是事实？

再次，也是最重要的，同性恋面临种种社会问题的根源不在于同性恋，而是在于社会上的歧视和偏见，是社会的歧视和偏见把同性恋推向了社会的边缘，用同性恋受到迫害的事实，而反过来再去作为反对同性恋的理由。

我除了怀疑这个神父的做人的是否正直，我还意识到，这个人从心底仇视同性恋，不管他用多么华丽的语言，用爱和亲情，用宗教和上帝去包装也好。丑恶的人性就是丑恶的。

同性恋一次被一次推向社会的边缘。每年有那么多同性恋的未成年人选择自杀，很多人居然说这是因额外你同性恋由于不正常而心理很矛盾才导致自杀的，这种纳粹才说出来的话，我可以从很普通的人嘴里说出来，我已经见怪不怪的。

同性恋是正常无病无罪的，如果你主观上认定同性恋有问题，而偏要纠正一个正常的群体，只会让这个群体变得不正常。每当我和一些人分享我的滋生遭遇和经历，甚至我的父母亲戚朋友，他们会那么轻描淡写的对我的一带而过，非但不承认我所受的伤害和迫害，甚至说这是我自己引起的。

我的心里要是曾经有血的话，那也早已经流干了。我唯一愿意做出的就只有骂人。

cello

基督教本来是宣扬爱的。但是基督教的经典比较冗长，里面的东西要字面理解，就成了某些人反同的依据。最近电视比较关注amish人，在这些人看来，他们那种不用电，不用车，直接古代的生活方式才是符合基督信仰的，所以同样的基督信仰，在不同的人看来确实很不一样，按照amish人的观点，现代人的种种行为都是违背信仰或者是罪恶的。

可是amish人并不令我讨厌。我尊重他们的信仰，他们也尊重世界其他人的信仰，他们安于在自己的地盘过古代生活，并不去干涉其他人。这个ACL以及Jim的问题是，他们生活在一个现代的社会里，却不懂得尊重不同信仰的别人，他们自己也许并达不到amish人的严于律己的标准，却喜欢对其他人说三道四要让社会向他们的道德标准看齐。

所以本质不是什么信仰，而是做人的品格。人不能太霸道，自己的自由限于自己的范围，对于别人的自由的基本尊重，应该是生存于现代社会的最基本公德。amish人严于待己，但并没有要求全社会怎么样。反而有些所谓基督徒总拿起十字架照别人，自己的行为却不那么令人尊敬。

xblues

Comments from the Prime Minister about Jim Wallace from the Australian Christian Lobby:

I have made the decision that I will not speak at the Australian Christian Lobby’s national conference next month.

我已经决定我将取消原计划下一个月在澳大利亚基督教党大会上发言的决定。

There are a range of deeply held views in the community on the issue of same-sex marriage but it is the responsibility of all parties in this debate to be respectful and responsible in any public comments they make.

对于同性婚姻，社会各界都各执己见，有着很不同的看法。但是各方都需要对自己的发言负责，遵守互相尊重的原则。

I believe yesterday’s comments by Jim Wallace were offensive. To compare the health effects of smoking cigarettes with the many struggles gay and lesbian Australians endure in contemporary society is heartless and wrong.

我相信昨天ACL领袖 Jim Wallace 的关于同性婚姻的发言是很无礼和充满敌意的。他把同性恋为了让现代社会所接受而进行的种种努力，和吸烟有害健康，进行比较，这一比较是错误的，也是没有良心的。

Although everyone is entitled to their own view, these statements reiterated again today on behalf of ACL are totally unacceptable.

尽管每一个人都有拥有自己看法和观点的权利，但是ACL的关于同性婚姻的言论显然是不可接受的。




In light of this, I believe my attendance at the conference would be inappropriate.

xblues

Anglican archbishop backs Christian lobby's gay views[size=12.222222328186035px]DateSeptember 11, 2012

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[size=1em]Jensen 'generally supportive' of Christian Lobby[size=12.222222328186035px]Sydney's Anglican Archbishop Peter Jensen fails to take the opportunity, on ABC's Q&A, to distance himself from Peter Wallace's comments on gay health risks versus smoking.

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[size=1.2em]THE Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jensen, has backed controversial comments by the Australian Christian Lobby head, Jim Wallace, that suggested a homosexual ''lifestyle'' was more hazardous to health than smoking.
[size=1.2em]Asked last night on ABC TV's Q&A to repudiate Mr Wallace's comments, Dr Jensen said: ''I am generally supportive of ACL.''

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[size=12.222222328186035px][size=1em]"As far as I can see the lifespan of practicing gays is significantly shorter than the ordinary so-called heterosexual man" ... Archbishop Peter Jensen. Photo: Domino Postiglione

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[size=1.2em]Dr Jensen said while he did not agree with everything ACL leaders said, Mr Wallace had ''given us an opportunity to talk about something significant, namely the question of health risk''.
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[size=1.2em]The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, pulled out of speaking at the Christian lobby's national conference in response to Mr Wallace's comments last week, which she described as ''offensive'' and ''heartless''.
[size=1.2em]But Dr Jensen said: ''It's very hard to get to the facts here because we don't want to talk about it, and in this country censorship is alive and well.
[size=1.2em]''As far as I can see … the lifespan of practising gays is significantly shorter than the ordinary so-called heterosexual man … what we need to do is to look at why this may be the case and we need to do it in a compassionate and objective way.''
[size=1.2em]The chief government whip, Joel Fitzgibbon, dismissed same-sex marriage as an ''11th order issue'' as a fourth bill to legalise gay marriage was introduced to Parliament yesterday. The latest bill, co-sponsored by the Labor senators Trish Crossin, Gavin Marshall, Louise Pratt and Carol Brown, is expected to be debated and voted on next week.
[size=1.2em]Senator Crossin said the Labor senators had introduced their bill because they wanted to see the issue debated in the Senate, and were pessimistic about the chances of the bill, introduced by the Labor backbencher Stephen Jones, passing the House of Representatives.
[size=1.2em]Gay marriage campaigners would like to see the issue voted on first in the Senate, where there is more support for change.
[size=1.2em]While campaigners are hopeful a majority of senators could be gathered from Green senators and sympathetic Labor senators, crossbenchers and coalition backbenchers, Senator Crossin admitted change was unlikely unless the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, granted Coalition MPs a free vote on the issue.
[size=1.2em]''If Coalition members have their hands tied behind their backs, it's going to be very difficult,'' she said.
[size=1.2em]Debating Mr Jones's bill yesterday, the Coalition frontbencher Malcolm Turnbull said he would vote for same-sex marriage if given a conscience vote. But he said because Coalition MPs did not have a free vote on the issue, he would abide by the Coalition position to vote against change.
[size=1.2em]Mr Turnbull said there was not enough support in the Parliament for same-sex marriage, but added: ''I am sure the numbers will be there in due course.''
[size=1.2em]He said in the meantime, Parliament could legislate for civil unions. The convener of Australian Marriage Equality, Alex Greenwich, said civil unions were a ''second-class form of recognition'' and countries such as New Zealand and Britain that had introduced them were now moving towards same-sex marriage laws.
[size=1.2em]He also accused Mr Fitzgibbon of being ''out of touch'' for describing gay marriage as an ''11th order issue''.
[size=1.2em]''I don't think it matters much to our society quite frankly whether same-sex couples marry or not,'' Mr Fitzgibbon said.
[size=1.2em]Mr Greenwich said it was ''upsetting'' Mr Fitzgibbon had dismissed an issue that was ''more passionately supported by the public than any other that the Parliament is currently dealing with''.

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Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/anglican-archbishop-backs-christian-lobbys-gay-views-20120910-25ogi.html#ixzz26E2MQmzN

xblues

基督教徒被宗教蒙上了眼睛，真是帮亲不帮理。

katsura

原帖由 xblues 于 12-9-2012 14:15 发表

                               
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基督教徒被宗教蒙上了眼睛，真是帮亲不帮理。

http://www.freeoz.org/ibbs/viewt ... e%3D1&frombbs=1
Anglican church 有啥权利对同性恋婚姻指手画脚？

xblues

澳大利亚人报说：自杀才是真正危害同性恋的健康杀手

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/suicide-a-bigger-danger-to-gays-health-experts/story-e6frg8y6-1226472976036

HEALTH experts say there is no reliable data to justify recent claims by religious figures that gay people are likely to die sooner than the general population, and that the health problems that do exist are a result of continuing discrimination.

Australian Christian Lobby managing director Jim Wallace and Sydney Anglican Archbishop Peter Jensen have both come under fire in recent days for appearing to suggest the "lifestyle" of gay people predisposed them to ill-health, in comments largely based on anecdotes, reports from overseas or studies from several years ago.
A range of Australia's gay and lesbian health organisations, as well as other health institutes and experts, have lined up to criticise the comments, saying Australia's official census and other health data is not collected in a way that would permit such statements to be made with any confidence.
Warren Talbot, general manager of the National LGBTI Health Alliance, said apart from HIV the only real evidence of a significant health disparity was related to mental health, which was worse, particularly among younger gay people, due to a range of social pressures.










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Do gays have a lower life expectancy?











"Suicidality amongst gay, lesbian and bisexual people is about three times higher than in the general population, and for transgender Australians is about 14 times higher," Mr Talbot said.
"The critical issue is why are people doing this? If Dr Jensen wants to have a serious discussion about this, the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex community would welcome that."
Other researchers said contrary to Dr Jensen's claim that a "virulent censorship" was preventing the discussion of lesbian and gay health issues, the real hurdle was the "great reluctance" among many research organisations to include questions about sexuality in their questionnaires, without which it is impossible to see if diseases affect gay people disproportionately.
Andrew Grulich, head of HIV epidemiology and prevention programs at the Kirby Institute at the University of NSW, said a research program called the 45 and Up study had recently agreed to ask about sexuality in a sub-set of 100,000 people who have agreed to have their health status recorded for years to come.
"But as only 2 per cent of the population is gay, even that may not be good enough to give us accurate figures on rates of death -- you need to follow a very large group for quite some time," Professor Grulich said.

xblues

这些宗教人士的心肝都被狗给吃了，这么狼心狗肺的人信上帝，信宇宙也的下地狱！

无论你怎么用笑脸去掩饰你的残酷与无情和无知，你都是最大最大的 Bigot

xblues

为反对ACL的极端恐同言论，进步派基督教组织成立

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/religionandethicsreport/a-new-22progressive-christian-voice22/4257608

Prime Minister Julia Gillard cancelled her appearance before the annual conference of the Australian Christian Lobby, after the lobby’s founder and chief, retired Brigadier Jim Wallace, compared the health effects of homosexuality to those of smoking. The ACL is actually a private company. Its main function is to influence governments towards a biblically conservative agenda. It doesn’t represent any particular church, nor does it claim to represent all Christians. But believers with more liberal views object to its name, the Australian Christian Lobby, because they feel the organisation doesn’t reflect the diversity of religious views. They’ve announced their own group, A Progressive Christian Voice (Australia). The secretary, the Rev Dr Ray Barraclough from Queensland, detailed his concerns about the implicit claim being made in the name, The Australian Christian Lobby.

choz

就是这帮基督徒打着上帝的旗号歧视压迫同性恋，然后借口同性恋自杀率死亡率高反过来再打压同性恋。简直就是将无耻进行到底！

black_zerg

同性恋这个问题，坦率说我也不知道应该怎么看待。 第一歧视肯定是不对，我肯定是做不出来。但是如果没有这些激烈反同的朋友们，是不是会发展出更多的同性恋？  当然只要自己高兴，那别人也管不着。 最好一般男人都同了，这样直男就都抢手。再一个问题就是目前社会同性恋活的有点悲催，或者说总感觉压力挺大。多数人总会希望下一代顺利点主流点。 我认为很重要的就是同性恋自己做的很优秀，不要落人话柄，这么说有点不公平，但是社会老观点的转变是要过程的

[ 本帖最后由 black_zerg 于 13-9-2012 20:53 编辑 ]

xblues

同性恋这个问题，坦率说我也不知道应该怎么看待。

---- 认识到自己知识的盲区很好，有互联网，可以自学补习，多学习，多了解。

第一歧视肯定是不对，我肯定是做不出来。

---- 歧视不歧视还要看行动和言论，很多歧视同性恋的人都不说自己歧视。

但是如果没有这些激烈反同的朋友们，是不是会发展出更多的同性恋？  

---- 你觉得你能有这个观点，是属于【不了解】呢，还是属于【歧视】呢？

当然只要自己高兴，那别人也管不着。

---- 如果真的管不着，你不应该再对同性恋指手画脚了，和发表一些你所谓的错误看法。

最好一般男人都同了，这样直男就都抢手。

---- 这种说法不科学。

再一个问题就是目前社会同性恋活的有点悲催，或者说总感觉压力挺大。

---- 被催，正是由于社会对同性恋的偏见和歧视造成的，因此消除歧视和偏见很重要。

多数人总会希望下一代顺利点主流点。

---- 希望总归是希望，现实是如果是同性恋，是不会因为上一代希望不是，就可以改的。

我认为很重要的就是同性恋自己做的很优秀，不要落人话柄，这么说有点不公平，但是社会老观点的转变是要过程的

---- 我觉得觉得的讲，不管是异性恋还是同性恋都应该争取自己做的很优秀。
---- 社会老观点，也即是对同性恋的歧视和偏见，都不是因为同性恋不优秀造成的，这些老观点针对的是同性恋的性取向，性行为，的偏见和歧视。一个优秀的同性恋还是同性恋，也不会因为优秀了，就变成异性恋了。所以优秀不优秀，和消除歧视无关。

black_zerg

首先需要研究的就是同性恋形成的原因，但是谁也不能拿小孩做实验，在社会上取样又干扰因素太多。对这个最关心的同性恋团体和宗教团体都有强烈的偏见，导致搞不出来一个客观的研究。

xblues

  世界上有那么多同性恋在分享自己的亲身经历，铁一般的事实，同性恋是天生的，你偏披着眼睛不看这个事实，还要实验，咋实验？为什么不拿你自己实验，拿你孩子实验？因为别人都承认这个事实了，在别人看来已经不需要再利用无辜的生命实验了！同权运动的目的就是解救无辜的同性恋。

这时候，你选择一个中立，我告诉你吧，你对同性恋的看法，和ACL，没什么两样，敢想敢当敢承认。

choz

原帖由 black_zerg 于 13-9-2012 20:51 发表

                               
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同性恋这个问题，坦率说我也不知道应该怎么看待。 第一歧视肯定是不对，我肯定是做不出来。但是如果没有这些激烈反同的朋友们，是不是会发展出更多的同性恋？  当然只要自己高兴，那别人也管不着。 最好一般男人都同 ...

其实根据调查，同性恋的比例，不论是在对同性恋宽松的西方国家还是对同性恋迫害的穆斯林国家，基本是维持不变的。
同性恋在西方国家比例高只是一个假想，因为西方国家对同性恋日渐宽松所以更多的同性恋出柜了。在中国因为对同性恋有歧视，所以大多数同性恋都隐藏性向和异性结婚了。但是他们依然被同性吸引，很多婚后在婚外找同性小三。造成很多同妻同夫的杯具！
做个比喻，你会觉得如果哪天整个社会对异性恋打压了，就会降低异性恋的比例？你就有可能转变成同性恋，对同性有感觉了？

[ 本帖最后由 choz 于 15-9-2012 23:34 编辑 ]