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标题: 论为什么会这样很难获得澳大利亚/新西兰工作 [打印本页]

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 20-10-2015 18:30
标题: 论为什么会这样很难获得澳大利亚/新西兰工作
Too many have expressed or experienced the difficulty of finding a white-collar job in AU/NZ, I'm no exception. Here, I wish to talk about some analyses on the root cause of that.

Too plain jobs, not too few:

I've heard numerous complains like, typically, "so few chances here". Is that really true? Just think how many C/C++ positions you can found in Australia compared with how many IC designers in Shanghai( with almost the same population as Australia).There's no doubt, much more such opportunities in the former case. The fundamental reason is the lack of really technical positions. Take myself for example, as software engineer working in embedded electronics, could hardly find any suitable roles in the market. The typical job description for so-called "embedded software engineer" is like:

*C/C++ programming
*OOP concpt
*shell script
*Know TCP/IP/UDP app programming
That's all, if without extra requirements like know Java, SQL, Javascript, C# (shit~~)

Is that really the "embedded software engineer", definitely not, it's indeed the application programmer on a ready ARM9 device, which doesn't need you to do anymore than programming on PC, except each time you have to download or burn the built image into that device, which is defined as "embedded software".

Knowing how many people on earth know C/C++? Then think about how to present your unique competitiveness over others? I've no idea, except memorizing all the C/C++ syntax(I did encounter such interviewer in NZ), to prove that you know C/C++ "better than others"? Frankly I never did C++ development before coming to NZ, I should say I was luck to get my current job as I pretended that I knew well C++/QT/Boost...

A horizontal job market rather than vertical
This distinct experience made me rethink my history of success or failure, which I hardly noted before (I would have never thought about it until death if not migrating to NZ). One explanation I can give is,

The more special skills the job requires the easier you can get the job,

which sounds a bit contrary to our common sense so far, right? It is true. When you attend a interview on a Bluetooth development role in an IC designer, you are not competing with millions of people in Shanghai, but just very few, given how many out of 10 millions have such knowledge and experience. That's the reason I didn't feel getting a technically suitable job very hard, in such a fiercely competing market. Or think about my American classmate graduated on a phD degree in battery technology, how many in the US would compete with him for a position in certain company? Those jobs are in the top level of the pyramid, which means pretty few people would apply for.

The situation in AU/NZ however is exact opposite, job seekers are not vertically divided based various technical levels. Rather, thousands of them are keen on one position. I never expected that I would need to get a position that numerous graduates do, while no way for me to show I'm stronger than others (who doesn't know C/C++/socket programming?). The interview questions asked here were never used in my formal companies (when I was an interviewer, I would feel I'm a fool if asking those to job seekers, or the humiliation to our team), as it sounded too non-technical.

So, it's the first time to experience what Chinese described as "thousands of horses crossing one bridge"!

To an extreme case, if you apply for, say, government office workers. Surely everyone knows that that's not something only expert can do. But just imagine how many are applying? The guy I know working in NZ tax bureau tends to be modest, "unlike you skilled professional, my job is what anybody can do". The fact behind this is, how hard you know I can get it after beating native English-speaking white people/maori people?

What are the strong points of that then, well, though not sure, it would be no more than something like, communication skills, personal attractiveness, whatever, definitely not that technical people like me are good at.

Besides, one thing I can't understand is given the reality, both AU and NZ immigration office still define the IT jobs as a "shortage"? Almost no technical jobs in the market that nobody can do, instead, IT employers are constantly busy selecting one from hundreds of applicants. Removing the jobs like web programming from shortage list seems to be brilliant.

作者: DDD888 时间: 20-10-2015 19:57
我随便搜索了下新加坡的关于bsp的工作
http://www.jobstreet.com.sg/en/j ... 12&res-search=1

发现这个工作应该属于bsp，http://www.jobstreet.com.sg/en/job/4887894?fr=21&src=12

但工资也只不过在6000-7000 sgd/month,我感觉bsp并非你在其他的帖子里所说神乎其神，只不过是普通的工程师的工作而已

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 20-10-2015 20:36

DDD888 发表于 20-10-2015 19:57
我随便搜索了下新加坡的关于bsp的工作
http://www.jobstreet.com.sg/en/job-search/job-vacancy.php?key=b ...

Beware this is a junior role, and Realtek a Taiwanese firm, generally pay less than Euro/American counterparts.

Did I say I dream of the job in IC designer just for money? If I love money I should follow the mainstream in NZ: property investment. So many of jobless earn more I do.

I never thought of income when I did BSP development (whatever the employer offered), and it was always higher than most app programmers.

Even if I were paid the same as a app programmer in a company I still prefer embedded dev.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 20-10-2015 20:39
In addition, most Taiwanese big firms like Realtek offer stock to their employees, which means the actual income would be higher, especially when the business goes well.
That's really a good strategy to consolidate the sense of teamwork.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 20-10-2015 20:42
本帖最后由 ScientificAmeri 于 20-10-2015 20:44 编辑

Realtek is a well-known firm on networking IC, I guess your PC's motherboard probably is equipped with their Ethernet chip.
I'd like to work there even if the pay is not too much, the real problem is they won't hire me.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 20-10-2015 20:45
Being in NZ, I even can't dream of working in that sort of firm. Do I have space to argue about the salary then.

作者: dcxg 时间: 21-10-2015 07:47
看不下去啦

楼主英文不地道，特能瞎白乎

没事儿逮一个鬼子就跟y侃啊

英文要copy的，中式逻辑很惨的哇

作者: chubbycat 时间: 21-10-2015 07:53

作者: dcxg 时间: 21-10-2015 08:07
打中文吧

有利于思想的表达

码工普遍英文不好，逻辑再不好，就踏马的彻底完蛋啦

情商就先别提啦

作者: DDD888 时间: 21-10-2015 12:30
本帖最后由 DDD888 于 21-10-2015 13:28 编辑

其实楼主不要小看写网站的，没有金刚钻，谁敢揽瓷器活啊？你自认为是搞科研的，你也不见得可以给出一个对下面的需求给个实现方案

新西蓝移民局每年给中国抽奖允许一定数量的人低于大概三十岁到新西兰来度假打工一年，因为热门每年的那一天都把新西蓝移民局的网站给弄了崩溃，如果给你一笔钱，请你去设计，你需要花多少钱设计整个框架可以解决这个问题啊？

作者: zy79 时间: 21-10-2015 13:05

DDD888 发表于 20-10-2015 19:57
我随便搜索了下新加坡的关于bsp的工作
http://www.jobstreet.com.sg/en/job-search/job-vacancy.php?key=b ...

这工作只要求3年经验，要是能给到6k一个月不低了，一年能近10万，所得税可以忽略不计

作者: wangbo 时间: 21-10-2015 13:06

DDD888 发表于 21-10-2015 12:30
其实楼主不要小看写网站的，没有金刚钻，谁感揽瓷器活啊？你自认为是搞科研的，你也不见得可以给出一个对下 ...

是啊，其实没有绝对的高低之分，只是熟悉的领域不同啊……

面对的是完全不同的问题

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 17:28

DDD888 发表于 20-10-2015 19:57
我随便搜索了下新加坡的关于bsp的工作
http://www.jobstreet.com.sg/en/job-search/job-vacancy.php?key=b ...

A good search engine, I'll keep an eye...

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 17:40

DDD888 发表于 21-10-2015 12:30
其实楼主不要小看写网站的，没有金刚钻，谁敢揽瓷器活啊？你自认为是搞科研的，你也不见得可以给出一个对下 ...

I didn't say I look down upon web dev, just toooooo many candidate in this market~~~

"你自认为是搞科研的，你也不见得可以给出一个对下面的需求给个实现方案"

Even NASA's rocket engineer or my phD classmate can't do that, it's like, a plumber asks a scientist, can you do my job?

After all, how many do you think are really working on technical issues on website, instead of creating UI elements repeatedly.

My classmate may not know what App programming is, but I'm doing App here everyday. How can I evaluate a career if I never experienced. Before coming to NZ I just knew that app programmers generally earn less and prone to overtime, but now I'm an App programmer.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 17:41

DDD888 发表于 21-10-2015 12:30
其实楼主不要小看写网站的，没有金刚钻，谁敢揽瓷器活啊？你自认为是搞科研的，你也不见得可以给出一个对下 ...

The first task I did in a mobile App firm, is to change the resource files to another set of design...

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 17:44

DDD888 发表于 21-10-2015 12:30
其实楼主不要小看写网站的，没有金刚钻，谁敢揽瓷器活啊？你自认为是搞科研的，你也不见得可以给出一个对下 ...

About this issue, I talked with web programmers when I was in the first company about concurrency issue, while most of them (several years experience) says that they never did/though of that when creating web, which surprised me.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 17:55

wangbo 发表于 21-10-2015 13:06
是啊，其实没有绝对的高低之分，只是熟悉的领域不同啊……

面对的是完全不同的问题

It's already pretty clear, one dealing with microcontrollers/OS kernels , while another on the business logic for end-users. Which one sounds more scientific?

In terms of the server reliability, that's about the server infra, nothing to do with web programmers. You can ask in firms like Amazon, Alibaba, who are account for those technical roles: I knew one guy in Alibaba(doing Linux kernel level dev), who used to do BSP in Marvell. According to him, the server side development has nothing to do with web programming, all the high-pay technical positions there are web programming unrelated, "Web programmers get the lowest wage in my company" he says.

The essence is business logic must run beyond existing infra that has been created by R&D people. Don't assume firms like Amazon/Alibaba run purely with web programmers.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 17:58

zy79 发表于 21-10-2015 13:05
这工作只要求3年经验，要是能给到6k一个月不低了，一年能近10万，所得税可以忽略不计

The key point is, once working in Realtek, you will be more likely to enter Qualcomm/NVIDIA/Marvell several years later. You can't get relevant experience without working in an IC firm. It's a pretty good chance for junior candidates.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 18:19
Actually Realtek is not necessarily weaker in terms of profitability, see the following data from wikipedia:

Qualcomm:
Revenue US$ 26.49 billion (2014)
Number of employees 31,000 (2014)

Realtek:
Revenue $1,029 million (2014)
Number of employees 2,500 (2015)

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 18:39
本帖最后由 ScientificAmeri 于 21-10-2015 19:03 编辑

dcxg 发表于 21-10-2015 08:07
打中文吧

有利于思想的表达

There are just two languages in which microchip specifications are documented as I know: English and Japanese; Korean/European/Taiwanese firms write in English alone.

That's already convincing enough for a scientific person to abandon Mandarin, a barbaric language originates from Mongolian colonists and later imposed by the communist regime, which is not my mother tongue either. None of my ancestors spoke Mandarin, my grandparents couldn't understand Mandarin TV programs but just Shanghainese dramas. Similarly It's already hotly debated in Singapore when the authority introduced the so called "mother tongue education" while locals argues that it's a foreign language instead.

Educated Indian people from different parts speak the International standard when it comes to workplace. As a linguistic victim I'd been forced to use a secondary language for decades. There no any force privileging it in the free world.

作者: zy79 时间: 21-10-2015 18:46

ScientificAmeri 发表于 21-10-2015 17:58
The key point is, once working in Realtek, you will be more likely to enter Qualcomm/NVIDIA/Marvel ...

IC公司里不同的工作差别还是挺大的，而且你列的这几个高通很难进，marvell都在往外跑没人愿意去

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 18:55

zy79 发表于 21-10-2015 18:46
IC公司里不同的工作差别还是挺大的，而且你列的这几个高通很难进，marvell都在往外跑没人愿意去

Partly because Marvell's owners are Chinese, Marvell already moved its R&D HQ to Shanghai.

However in terms of technical perspective I don't think working in Marvell is so bad as you said.

"marvell都在往外跑没人愿意去" That's obviously exaggerated. In fact Shanghai Qualcomm doesn't do IC design while such roles exist in Marvell.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 18:59

zy79 发表于 21-10-2015 18:46
IC公司里不同的工作差别还是挺大的，而且你列的这几个高通很难进，marvell都在往外跑没人愿意去

You used to work in Marvell? Shortly before I left Shanghai they were just recruiting FAEs.

作者: melody_iic 时间: 21-10-2015 19:44
装13的货

作者: nisejob 时间: 21-10-2015 19:49
Unlike the op, I guess most of people in this thread don't know or read Scientific American.

I met few Chinese cooks living in Melbourne last weekend, obviously they're happier than you guys in high tech industries - web development for them are definitely high tech.

I have the magazine subscription though.

作者: zy79 时间: 21-10-2015 19:56

ScientificAmeri 发表于 21-10-2015 18:59
You used to work in Marvell? Shortly before I left Shanghai they were just recruiting FAEs.

最近没看新闻吧，marvell国内都快裁光了

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 19:59

nisejob 发表于 21-10-2015 19:49
Unlike the op, I guess most of people in this thread don't know or read Scientific American.

I me ...

That's undoubtedly a sort of "happiness" but not in the American way, as a result, Australian turns out to be the paradise of hard labors.

Another thinking in my mind is, can you live without whom?
What would the world look like without US/UK or just Australia? The modern civilization in the end was established upon science/technology, not hard labors.

I never bought or used any product made/invented in Australia and it doesn't affect my daily life at all.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 20:13

zy79 发表于 21-10-2015 19:56
最近没看新闻吧，marvell国内都快裁光了

I hardly read Chinese news, it's pretty rare so many fired in China, normally for multinational firms the primary lay-off target would be in the US HQ.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 21-10-2015 20:19
"手机芯片业最初由美国公司占据绝对主导，但是随着联发科以及海思、展讯等中国芯片厂商崛起，美国芯片厂商开始走下坡路，德州仪器、飞思卡尔、英伟达、博通等美国芯片巨头都出售或放弃了手机芯片业务，只剩下龙头厂商高通，以及举棋不定的英特尔。展望未来，手机芯片业务必将呈现寡头式垄断局面，Marvell手机芯片业务尽管因为贪心，最终砸手里了，但壮士断腕，不失为明智之举。"

Shit, 联发科 is a Chinese firm? What a kind of "culture"~~

作者: xq052b 时间: 21-10-2015 21:06

nisejob 发表于 21-10-2015 19:49
Unlike the op, I guess most of people in this thread don't know or read Scientific American.

I me ...

我蛋疼去搜了一下，想不到这杂志竟然有impact factor，虽然只有1.0

作者: nisejob 时间: 21-10-2015 21:38

ScientificAmeri 发表于 21-10-2015 19:59
That's undoubtedly a sort of "happiness" but not in the American way, as a result, Australian turn ...

It's really not a big deal with UK/US, especially US. Would you doubt that one day others would invent paper and paper money without ancient China?

作者: DDD888 时间: 22-10-2015 06:30

ScientificAmeri 发表于 21-10-2015 17:55
It's already pretty clear, one dealing with microcontrollers/OS kernels , while another on the bus ...

我感觉我所做的事其实是Architect啦

作者: dcxg 时间: 22-10-2015 06:44

ScientificAmeri 发表于 21-10-2015 18:39
There are just two languages in which microchip specifications are documented as I know: English ...

人才啊

作者: DDD888 时间: 22-10-2015 06:55
本帖最后由 DDD888 于 22-10-2015 07:01 编辑

embedded engineer在哪啊？

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new ... p;objectid=11533005

哎，这世界上有太多的人不懂如何写安全的系统

如果是我，即使我没有该汽车的嵌入式系统的源程序，我也知道如何保护这辆车，就是用最老式的给方向盘加把锁啦

作者: dcxg 时间: 22-10-2015 08:02

DDD888 发表于 22-10-2015 06:55
embedded engineer在哪啊？

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11533005
...

又开始吹牛逼啦

作者: dcxg 时间: 22-10-2015 08:04
说的是嵌入式编程的吧？

介玩意儿，我琢磨着design阶段比较重要，得开放
码工不懂硬件还踏马的不行哇

安全问题可以逐步修修补补的
尼玛搞的太安全就成封闭系统啦

谁跟你玩？

作者: DDD888 时间: 22-10-2015 08:07

dcxg 发表于 22-10-2015 08:04
说的是嵌入式编程的吧？

介玩意儿，我琢磨着design阶段比较重要，得开放

安全问题应该在设计阶段就完成，不是以后修修补补

作者: dcxg 时间: 22-10-2015 08:09

DDD888 发表于 22-10-2015 08:07
安全问题应该在设计阶段就完成，不是以后修修补补

扯吧

没有完全安全的系统
总是在矛与盾的斗争中逐步完善

你啥世界观的哇

作者: DDD888 时间: 22-10-2015 08:19

dcxg 发表于 22-10-2015 08:09
扯吧

没有完全安全的系统

总要有理想的吗

作者: dcxg 时间: 22-10-2015 08:33

DDD888 发表于 22-10-2015 08:19
总要有理想的吗

理想要照进现实的哇

作者: guangyang 时间: 22-10-2015 10:20
Who wrote this crappy English? And the entire wrongly conceptual situation is in contrary to the real Aussie employment environment. If you are an embedded software engineer Adelaide might be your best bet or even the DOD, but comparing Australia as a country and Shanghai as a most industrialised City in China seems very inappropriate.

作者: DDD888 时间: 22-10-2015 11:09
本帖最后由 DDD888 于 22-10-2015 11:55 编辑

nisejob 发表于 21-10-2015 19:49
Unlike the op, I guess most of people in this thread don't know or read Scientific American.

I me ...

知音啊

我的梦想是开发几十亿人使用的信息系统，我努力啦，我现在写的网站每天大概有8000个澳大利亚，新西兰人次访问，虽然不能和中国，美国的网站访问的人次比，但也是向目标迈进啦

作者: DDD888 时间: 22-10-2015 11:10

dcxg 发表于 22-10-2015 08:02
又开始吹牛逼啦

哪吹牛啦？

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 22-10-2015 20:16
<<President Xi said his country "attaches huge importance" to human rights.

"We combine the universal value of human rights with Chinese reality and we have found a path of human rights development suited to China's national conditions," he said, in response to a question from BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg. >>

Okay, to help Xi explain it clearly, the "Chinese reality" is that Mandarin speaking slaves by borth don't deserve human rights~~

作者: levine 时间: 22-10-2015 20:52

DDD888 发表于 22-10-2015 11:09
知音啊

我的梦想是开发几十亿人使用的信息系统，我努力啦，我现在写的网站每天大概有8000 ...

8000 人同时访问，还是一天总共只有8000人次访问？

作者: nicklegao 时间: 22-10-2015 22:01
楼主，你为啥整个中文标题呢？弄个英文的不是更显得你牛逼一点？
最讨厌假洋鬼子了，跟鬼佬拽洋文我没意见。这里都是中国人，显摆你那半吊子的英文有意思吗？

作者: DDD888 时间: 23-10-2015 06:15

levine 发表于 22-10-2015 20:52
8000 人同时访问，还是一天总共只有8000人次访问？

每天总共有8000人次访问

作者: DDD888 时间: 23-10-2015 07:15

nicklegao 发表于 22-10-2015 22:01
楼主，你为啥整个中文标题呢？弄个英文的不是更显得你牛逼一点？
最讨厌假洋鬼子了，跟鬼佬拽洋文我没意见 ...

应该支持写英文啦，毕竟熟能生巧，多写，被人多指点，英文作文水平才可以得到快速提高

作者: dcxg 时间: 23-10-2015 08:52

DDD888 发表于 23-10-2015 07:15
应该支持写英文啦，毕竟熟能生巧，多写，被人多指点，英文作文水平才可以得到快速提高

思维模式不改变，英文怎么写都白搭！

作者: dcxg 时间: 23-10-2015 08:52

DDD888 发表于 22-10-2015 11:10
哪吹牛啦？

感觉不到啊？

有自信是好的！

作者: DDD888 时间: 23-10-2015 09:24

dcxg 发表于 23-10-2015 08:52
思维模式不改变，英文怎么写都白搭！

要支持百家鸣吗

作者: dcxg 时间: 23-10-2015 09:36

DDD888 发表于 23-10-2015 09:24
要支持百家鸣吗

也对

作者: melody_iic 时间: 23-10-2015 11:01
本帖最后由 melody_iic 于 23-10-2015 11:10 编辑

楼主能以相同字数用英文表达出下面小段文字来再贬中文不迟
否则就是在这丢人现眼
去他妈狗屁逻辑

《施氏食狮史》
石室诗士施氏，嗜狮，誓食十狮。
氏时时适市视狮。十时，适十狮适市。
是时，适施氏适市。
氏视十狮，恃矢势，使是十狮逝世。
氏拾是十狮尸，适石室。
石室湿，氏拭室。
氏始试食十狮尸。
食时，始识十狮尸，实是十石狮尸。
试释是事。

作者: dcxg 时间: 24-10-2015 06:04

melody_iic 发表于 23-10-2015 11:01
楼主能以相同字数用英文表达出下面小段文字来再贬中文不迟
否则就是在这丢人现眼
去他妈狗屁逻辑

神马破诗的啊

作者: dcxg 时间: 24-10-2015 07:05

melody_iic 发表于 23-10-2015 11:01
楼主能以相同字数用英文表达出下面小段文字来再贬中文不迟
否则就是在这丢人现眼
去他妈狗屁逻辑

所谓中国的读书人就这样
懂些汉字，瞎逼得瑟

就喜欢把汉字翻来覆去的倒腾，感觉自个特别有文化似的

介种所谓的文章，词，诗，有个鸡巴毛意思撒？

哥踏马的读了介么多年书，介么有文化的人，都理解不了啊！

作者: chubbycat 时间: 24-10-2015 07:24

作者: cwb1000 时间: 24-10-2015 09:24

ScientificAmeri 发表于 21-10-2015 18:39
There are just two languages in which microchip specifications are documented as I know: English ...

管它几种语言，有本事烧进去的时候用AB代替10。。。

作者: melody_iic 时间: 24-10-2015 09:49

dcxg 发表于 24-10-2015 07:05
所谓中国的读书人就这样
懂些汉字，瞎逼得瑟

收回你的JB
不然剁了不赔

作者: Kemang 时间: 24-10-2015 14:38
楼主第一次和最后一次考雅思时写作分数各是多少啊？

作者: jsonp 时间: 25-10-2015 00:58
so English is your mother language?
with so many grammar errors, IELTS writing score would be less than 6.5, no doubt.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 25-10-2015 05:15

jsonp 发表于 25-10-2015 00:58
so English is your mother language?
with so many grammar errors, IELTS writing score would be less ...

I took IELTS test twice, and got writing score 6.5 in each time.

I mentioned my mother tongue a few times in previous posts, if your conclusion is "English is my mother tongue", I would inter, your IELTS score might be too high~~

Though there's no doubt English has been my main language in both work and life~~ should I say enjoy your mother tongue Mandarin, if applicable?

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 25-10-2015 05:19
本帖最后由 ScientificAmeri 于 25-10-2015 05:21 编辑

Kemang 发表于 24-10-2015 14:38
楼主第一次和最后一次考雅思时写作分数各是多少啊？

I can't understand so many spending time on taking English tests just for a place without good career prospect, compared to NZ which doesn't require a very high mark.

None of my classmates in US took English test for immigration and they never thought of moving to Australia even when they hadn't yet secured a job. The reason is not about taking English test or not, but none of them believe they are able to get a suitable job in this country, which is the decisive difference between the 2 kinds of people I think.

作者: dcxg 时间: 25-10-2015 06:53

melody_iic 发表于 24-10-2015 09:49
收回你的JB
不然剁了不赔

施氏食狮史介不纯牌凑字的哇

中国有狮子么

英文翻译简单啊
full of shit
that's bullshit!

还是古文好啊，简称为然并卵

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 25-10-2015 10:02
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politi ... p;objectid=11534667

John Key might envy his PRC counterpart, Mr Xi, who doesn't need any public opinion but just sign a "chairman command" straightforward~~

作者: jsonp 时间: 25-10-2015 20:27

ScientificAmeri 发表于 25-10-2015 05:15
I took IELTS test twice, and got writing score 6.5 in each time.

I mentioned my mother tongue a ...

since English is your main language, i'd feel your language ability is below-par.

though English is my second language, my IELTS result was 8 8 7 7

作者: Kemang 时间: 26-10-2015 02:19

ScientificAmeri 发表于 25-10-2015 05:19
I can't understand so many spending time on taking English tests just for a place without good c ...

楼主的雅思写作还是蛮不错的分数。不过看你的写作总是别别扭扭的，并且我的直觉是楼主说普通话也带有浓重的口音。我猜得对不对？嘿嘿

作者: dcxg 时间: 26-10-2015 06:37

ScientificAmeri 发表于 25-10-2015 10:02
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11534667

John Key might env ...

你是想谈工作呢，还是想谈土共？

作者: dcxg 时间: 26-10-2015 06:39

jsonp 发表于 25-10-2015 20:27
since English is your main language, i'd feel your language ability is below-par.

though Englis ...

你英文也不地道啊

@chubbycat what do you think?

作者: chubbycat 时间: 26-10-2015 06:45

作者: dcxg 时间: 26-10-2015 06:59

chubbycat 发表于 26-10-2015 06:45

thewall 英文好哇

作者: chubbycat 时间: 26-10-2015 07:46

dcxg 发表于 25-10-2015 11:59
thewall 英文好哇

yes absolutely

作者: dcxg 时间: 26-10-2015 07:54
楼主内个意思就是澳纽不缺it，门槛不高
大家没事就要练好英文

再怎么烂的英文，只要敢说就行！

你们都get the point木有啊？

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 20:05

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 06:39
你英文也不地道啊

@chubbycat what do you think?

I've already found that those liking to boast their English levels are always the guys who mostly use Mandarin.

Why? If they keep working and talking with whites, they would never have chance to think of "if my English is better than others", as I heard one Indian told me, we see Chinese people speaking English with different levels but no Indian people considers English as a skill as everyone(educated) speaks it fluently.

作者: dcxg 时间: 26-10-2015 20:07

ScientificAmeri 发表于 26-10-2015 20:05
I've already found that those liking to boast their English levels are always the guys who mostly ...

三哥们的烂英文啊

就是比咱们多知道几个单词啊

不要自卑，只要copy就好

鹦鹉学舌懂不懂？

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 20:21

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 07:54
楼主内个意思就是澳纽不缺it，门槛不高
大家没事就要练好英文

Those are the typical Chinese guy I would criticize: taking English as a skill of themselves while trying to look down on others they perceives worse.

Just look at those in Qualcomm or NASA if they are interested to compare the English proficiency?

Not surprisingly, the guys working in English language school like English test best, simply because they live on that kind of stuff. They are actually redundant people in the society, their existence reflects the fact they benefits from the linguistic barrier imposed by authorities such as the communist.

If I say we wish the English becomes the medium of standard of all the countries including China, they would definitely oppose it! And there's no doubt they support the official status of Mandarin.

They actually do not like western perceptions or science/technology, what they favor here is they can get some superiority to those who were taught in PRC! If everybody speaks English as fluently as that in India they would suddenly becomes fools. Frankly I hate English teachers in China, along with "political teachers".

Everybody can speaks fluently with their first language, which is not a skill like math or physics. Because of the linguistic barreir created by some regimes, "English education" thrives based on other's pain. (I still remember when I was young how hard I struggled to read Direct3D SDK document). As the same educated people, why my right to freely read technical documents was deprived because of the Mandarin education, since which I realized we were mentally raped whereas those English tutors were able to take advantage from us.

I'll have an discuss about that topic later when I get free.

As a result, I never use Mandarin the colonial language on which I'd been a victim on receiving knowledge from the free world. I appreciate that I already work and live in a English speaking society where nobody is able to force us to use Mandarin any longer!

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 20:23

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 06:37
你是想谈工作呢，还是想谈土共？

Both :-) you know what kind of person I am.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 20:28

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 07:54
楼主内个意思就是澳纽不缺it，门槛不高
大家没事就要练好英文

Interestingly my English has only been criticized by Chinese guys.

To be fair, compared to Japanese people, English-speaking people are less tolerant of bad speakers, if your English is really too poor they wouldn't like to talk with you. If my English is indeed that bad would I be hired by any NZ firm?

While Japanese people knowing their language is not the international standard, would kindly talk to you even if you just speak little Japanese.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 20:31

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 07:54
楼主内个意思就是澳纽不缺it，门槛不高
大家没事就要练好英文

Furthermore, it's about a sort of respect and fairness.

I used to talk with a Cantonese guy who doesn't speak Mandarin very well. I suggested why not use English since neither takes Mandarin as mother tongue.

That's what happens in India, Hindi speakers have no right to force southern Indians to learn Hindi.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 20:38

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 07:54
楼主内个意思就是澳纽不缺it，门槛不高
大家没事就要练好英文

When I was in my former company in China, when I worked as a technical lead, I launched an English campaign, encouraging members in our team aggressively use English as much as possible, as all the teams took the book "definitive guides to ARM Cortex M3" as development reference, some had already expressed difficulty reading much of the book.

In particular during technical meeting or presentation, I tried to speak English, and my members felt happy.

China should be a society like that, which is not impossible, but just deliberately ignorantized by the regime, we all know why, don't we? If all the technical people speak English like their India counterparts, who would stay in PRC any more, except 5 mao.

作者: dcxg 时间: 26-10-2015 20:40

ScientificAmeri 发表于 26-10-2015 20:31
Furthermore, it's about a sort of respect and fairness.

I used to talk with a Cantonese guy who ...

脸皮要厚点

林子大啦什么鸟都有
玻璃心不行

作者: dcxg 时间: 26-10-2015 20:43

ScientificAmeri 发表于 26-10-2015 20:38
When I was in my former company in China, when I worked as a technical lead, I launched an English ...

因为咱们都没赶上神马好时代

学习最踏马次的，最后都当上了人民教师！
人民教师的工资还不低

介么次的老师就别指望能教出好的英文啦

说实在的，我比较鄙视人民教师

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 20:51
本帖最后由 ScientificAmeri 于 26-10-2015 20:58 编辑

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 20:40
脸皮要厚点

林子大啦什么鸟都有

It's not hard to infer the perspective of (some, not all) native Mandarin speakers. They are used to the superiority to Shanghainese, Cantonese, Fukkienese in China as it's a norm that all of latter MUST learn former's mother tongue, not because of their scientific/economic advantages but just because they are descendants of Monglolian/Manchurian who dominated China for centuries. They enjoy such superiority in China just like American in the world. But when we left China, it's necessary to tell them: your force-based superiority vanished.

I once talked with my Taiwanese friends, so many of you guys are calling for change of the national name, or national flag, all of which are no more than ideology. Why don't you guys abolish Mandarin, the colonial language of hostile state, in favor of English? They do have strengthened the influence of Taiwanese language, but few thinks it can be used as a suitable medium of instructions in modern time.

Those are untold story in China, almost no Chinese student knows Mandarin originates from the barbaric language other than Chinese majority, and the difference between Cantonese and Mandarin is equivalent to that between English and German. They are told that they are learning a "national language" to replace their "dialects".

I wish to tell the truth to public to enlighten more and more Chinese people.

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 26-10-2015 21:07

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 20:43
因为咱们都没赶上神马好时代

学习最踏马次的，最后都当上了人民教师！

Interestingly, I hated English a lot when I was in high school, thanks to the problematic English education system (on which I'm going to have a separate discussion)

I just try my hard to learn English when I understood the truth: Mandarin is an invisible tool to enslave Chinese people, along with other brainwash methods.

Another events shocked me is, when Xiaobo Liu was interviewed by western journalist, he said the most pity thing for him is he can write in Mandarin only, so that non-Chinese people can't read his work directly.

I never write in Mandarin since then. I need to be a human being on this planet, rather than a slave in an isolated "Chinese featured" state.

I like to say, when I speak Mandarin I realize I'm a PRC citizen. When I speak Japanese I realize I'm and Asian (indeed I used to be a racist favoring Japanese ideology), when I speak English, I'm an Earth citizen.

作者: DDD888 时间: 27-10-2015 05:06
Hello everyone, can we back to the topic please?

作者: ScientificAmeri 时间: 27-10-2015 05:45

DDD888 发表于 27-10-2015 05:06
Hello everyone, can we back to the topic please?

Are you a Cantonese speaker, as I saw you like using the term "lah"?

作者: dcxg 时间: 27-10-2015 06:04

ScientificAmeri 发表于 26-10-2015 21:07
Interestingly, I hated English a lot when I was in high school, thanks to the problematic English ...

因噎废食哈

好比一种嫁接的艺术
植物本来就有其天生的气质与土壤

可以抛离，但不是常态

作者: dcxg 时间: 27-10-2015 06:06
本帖最后由 dcxg 于 27-10-2015 06:18 编辑

哥也恨英文，介玩意儿，完全没有神马艺术性可言

中文的美，需要一定的积累，达到一定的物质层次才行？

英文它不神秘，工具而已

作者: DDD888 时间: 27-10-2015 06:10

ScientificAmeri 发表于 27-10-2015 05:45
Are you a Cantonese speaker, as I saw you like using the term "lah"?

我是上海人

作者: DDD888 时间: 27-10-2015 06:11
本帖最后由 DDD888 于 27-10-2015 06:21 编辑

dcxg 发表于 27-10-2015 06:06
哥也恨英文，介玩意儿，完全没有神马艺术性可言

中文的美，需要一定的积累，达到一定的物质层次才行？

英文挺好的，看英文电影多开心啊

作者: dcxg 时间: 27-10-2015 06:14

DDD888 发表于 27-10-2015 06:11
英文挺好的的，看英文电影多开心啊

完全没耐心看下去

作者: DDD888 时间: 27-10-2015 06:21
本帖最后由 DDD888 于 27-10-2015 06:22 编辑

dcxg 发表于 27-10-2015 06:14
完全没耐心看下去

我最喜欢看英文电影啦，不过我看lord of the ring睡着了,我挺喜欢看king kong的前半段，后面半段太脱离现实啦，也会睡觉

电影cashback不错,我是在netflix上看的，很有创新啦
https://www.google.co.nz/webhp?s ... ie=UTF-8#q=cashback

作者: dcxg 时间: 27-10-2015 06:28
就知道你是如此的没节操啊

netflix有毛好看的？

要看skytv的哇，电影，rugby，国家地理，national geographic channel wild animal

要有点追求的好么？

作者: DDD888 时间: 27-10-2015 06:32

dcxg 发表于 27-10-2015 06:28
就知道你是如此的没节操啊

netflix有毛好看的？

skytv贵，不看

作者: dcxg 时间: 27-10-2015 06:37

DDD888 发表于 27-10-2015 06:32
skytv贵，不看

人生苦短啊

且行且珍惜

作者: DDD888 时间: 27-10-2015 08:19

dcxg 发表于 27-10-2015 06:37
人生苦短啊

且行且珍惜

还有更重要的地方需要花钱，例如我儿子，女儿读书的钱从哪里来啊？

作者: chubbycat 时间: 27-10-2015 08:35

dcxg 发表于 26-10-2015 11:28
就知道你是如此的没节操啊

netflix有毛好看的？

I like Netflix

作者: whbddt 时间: 27-10-2015 12:01
没明白楼主要表达的意思

作者: dcxg 时间: 27-10-2015 17:54

DDD888 发表于 27-10-2015 08:19
还有更重要的地方需要花钱，例如我儿子，女儿读书的钱从哪里来啊？

有没有那么的悲啊？

作者: dcxg 时间: 27-10-2015 17:54

chubbycat 发表于 27-10-2015 08:35
I like Netflix

抠门

作者: DDD888 时间: 28-10-2015 10:46
转一下，其实理由很简单，http://www.linuxeden.com/html/review/20120811/128468.html

为什么还有人雇佣糟糕的程序员？
来源:OSChina.NET 作者

schina
　　
有一种言论是好的程序员的效率是差的程序员的10倍，那为什么那些差的程序员还能找到工作并且能一直做下去呢？我最近阅读了 DZone 上面的 Troy Hunt 的文章“Measuring code quality with NDepend” 。先不管 NDepend，Troy 分享了一个关于专业性的有趣的观点：
我一直想不通为什么软件行业的专业性的差异会如此巨大。对比医生或者飞行员，好的医生和不好的医生差别不会很大，而飞行员的差别应该更小。当然医疗事故和飞行事故也会发生，但那确实很偶然。但是软件行业垃圾代码，低质量软件的概率似乎要高很多很多。

Troy 的文章引起了我对专业性的思考，以及为啥不好的程序员也能找到工作并能一直做下去。我认为有三个主要原因，可以解释为啥竞争力，效率和专业性不是程序员职业生涯的决定性因素。

- 明星公司通过市场营销和技术竞争力创造伟大的产品。
- 外行无法分辨代码好坏。在漂亮的 UI 下面可能是技术灾难。
- 代码的好与坏可能需要10年的时间才能体现。

产品理念，市场营销，技术壁垒

像 Apple，Google 这样的明星公司，他们有非常好的产品理念，市场营销以及技术壁垒。这三样只要有其中两样就可以把产品做成功，例如好的产品理念和良好的市场营销加上一般般的技术水准。

我记得在 2000 年的 CeBIT 会议上，我当时所在的公司有一套非常好的网页发布系统，但是我们很难让大家了解我们。但是我们隔壁的公司穿着西装革履，非常健谈，他们的产品也不错（虽然我同事常常嘲笑他们的图像处理产品就像学校实验室的作业）。那个图像处理公司现在是移动图像软件领域的主要玩家。而我的老东家还是一家很小的公司。

外行无法分辨代码好坏

我不知道那家图像处理公司的代码如何，使用他们产品的用户同样不知道。但是我知道他们的用户界面设计很好。一款软件的界面与代码质量真的没有什么关系。即使你把代码给用户看，他也看不出来啥。但是建筑行业就不一样，大部分外行可以通过仔细查看外观来判断一栋楼的质量。

10年见分晓

对于用户来讲，他关心的只是软件是否最新版本，是否好用，是否漂亮。代码的质量往往需要在使用很长时间以后才能体现出来。一个软件维护了十年以后，具有良好的设计和编码的软件将依然很好用，而不好的软件可能已经被抛弃。不幸的是，糟糕的程序员可能在这十年中写了很多烂代码。时间会消磨一切，很多项目时间一长大家都不在乎这些了。而这些糟糕的程序员依然可以拿他们去年的漂亮项目出来找工作。

PS:
太完美的东西让用户没有升级的欲望，自然不会再记住你这家编程公司，其实在IT业，客户关系是在软硬件维护中维持下去的

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